Well, yesterday, I happened to click on the following facebook post from one of my friends.
I know it's hard to read, but basically it's about how so many people are struggling to get by, and how the Romney's get at $70,000+ tax break for their horse. Even though the post was inaccurate, I wasn't going to waste time commenting on it. But then I happened to glance down at the comments, and while most were typically just agreeing that Republicans are bad and this is why because we're all greedy and don't care about anyone else, etc., the third post said, "Friends don't let friends vote for cult members." This one I couldn't let go. So the following is the back and forth I had with this friend of a friend about the church.
Ross (friend of a friend)- "Friends don't let friends vote for cult members."
Me- "The same propaganda could be done with a picture of a wealthy democrat. Neither side gains points when they put out unimaginative, simple and inaccurate information. I don't agree with the democrats, but I also don't agree with the republicans when they talk about, or post, inaccurate information about Obama . . . Or name call.
And just a side note, the cult reference is unwarranted and inaccurate."
And just a side note, the cult reference is unwarranted and inaccurate."
Ross- "You think it's unwarranted to point out that a person running for leader of our country is in a fringe religion? Mormonism is indeed a cult in every sense of the word."
Me- "It isn't a cult. And that's what I'm talking about. People who choose to not do their own research about something and yet insist on throwing around inaccurate information and words meant to scare others, or just get an emotional reaction, are doing their side a disservice. I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (mormon) and we are definitely not a cult. And if Peter remembers me at all from high school, he could attest that I'm a pretty 'normal' and tolerant person who knows how to make her own decisions. I don't know what you think makes us a cult, but we have church services all over the country, every Sunday, usually at 9 am, and the meetings are open to anyone who wants to come. If you want to know what we believe, go to the source.
You're probably a really nice and good person who believes in being nice and tolerant of others; why aren't Mormons afforded the same courtesy?
You have every right to not want to vote for someone for any reason you want, but say it's because he's mormon, not because he's part of a cult."
You're probably a really nice and good person who believes in being nice and tolerant of others; why aren't Mormons afforded the same courtesy?
You have every right to not want to vote for someone for any reason you want, but say it's because he's mormon, not because he's part of a cult."
Ross- "I did not mean “cult” in a demeaning way. People often use cult as a scary term to mean something it's not. The actual definition is “a system of religious beliefs, often regarded as unorthodox”. I’m also not sure that I implied that you were intolerant or abnormal or that Mormonism was a closed-door sect. From what I have gathered, Mormons are very kind people.
I am not of any religion but I do consider myself a student of them. They fascinate me and it truly amazes me how people can believe some of the things they do. It may have appeared that I was singling out Mormonism; I assure you I wasn’t. I put most modern religions into the same pool of criticism.
That said, I have read the Book of Mormon and have had multiple conversations with LDS people about your religion and its history. From what I have gathered, and correct me if I’m wrong, Mormons believe the Book of Mormon to be absolute truth, right? Unfortunately, this includes polygamy, racism, sexism, homophobia, the belief that men can become gods, and many other things that I just can’t quite figure out how they are justified or believed. Like most other religions, some of the core LDS beliefs have evolved over time whenever it becomes politically or otherwise convenient. What happened to absolute truth? Black people were not even allowed to be priests in LDS until 1978. What changed? Women are still not allowed, right? Forgive me for the harsh criticism, but I believe that any belief is open for debate and should be challenged and not blindly accepted. This goes for all religions.
One of the best things about this country is that it was founded on the freedom of/from religion. It’s a great freedom… but I absolutely draw the line at elected officials. I do not want my leaders letting their religion influence their decisions that affect others. We need to elect the people willing to help the largest number of Americans, not the ones that govern according to their personal beliefs. That’s not what the founding fathers wanted.
Given the option of Obama and Romney… they both are religious, but there are big differences. In the last 3 years, I have noticed that Obama most certainly does not inject his religion into how he governs. For that I respect him (though it has angered many religious types who wish he would). Regarding Romney, I most certainly do not want a person who believes it is possible to become a god by collecting enough money and funneling it to his church. His stances on most of the issues just reek of his religion. This is not what I believe is in the best interest of this nation or the majority of its people. My vote goes to Obama who has showed me that he has been a fair, tolerant, unbiased leader worthy of a 2nd term."
I am not of any religion but I do consider myself a student of them. They fascinate me and it truly amazes me how people can believe some of the things they do. It may have appeared that I was singling out Mormonism; I assure you I wasn’t. I put most modern religions into the same pool of criticism.
That said, I have read the Book of Mormon and have had multiple conversations with LDS people about your religion and its history. From what I have gathered, and correct me if I’m wrong, Mormons believe the Book of Mormon to be absolute truth, right? Unfortunately, this includes polygamy, racism, sexism, homophobia, the belief that men can become gods, and many other things that I just can’t quite figure out how they are justified or believed. Like most other religions, some of the core LDS beliefs have evolved over time whenever it becomes politically or otherwise convenient. What happened to absolute truth? Black people were not even allowed to be priests in LDS until 1978. What changed? Women are still not allowed, right? Forgive me for the harsh criticism, but I believe that any belief is open for debate and should be challenged and not blindly accepted. This goes for all religions.
One of the best things about this country is that it was founded on the freedom of/from religion. It’s a great freedom… but I absolutely draw the line at elected officials. I do not want my leaders letting their religion influence their decisions that affect others. We need to elect the people willing to help the largest number of Americans, not the ones that govern according to their personal beliefs. That’s not what the founding fathers wanted.
Given the option of Obama and Romney… they both are religious, but there are big differences. In the last 3 years, I have noticed that Obama most certainly does not inject his religion into how he governs. For that I respect him (though it has angered many religious types who wish he would). Regarding Romney, I most certainly do not want a person who believes it is possible to become a god by collecting enough money and funneling it to his church. His stances on most of the issues just reek of his religion. This is not what I believe is in the best interest of this nation or the majority of its people. My vote goes to Obama who has showed me that he has been a fair, tolerant, unbiased leader worthy of a 2nd term."
Me- "There is no longer a ‘proper’ way to call someone a cult. It didn’t start out as a derogatory term, but that has become its meaning. And with that label, it is usually implied that people are intolerant, secluded, or can’t think for themselves and do whatever their ‘leader’ tells them to do. (This is why it’s better to not use terms like that.)
One of our articles of faith says, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” We believe that, like the Bible, the Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets. That does not mean that when they talk about war, for example, that we believe we should be fighting wars all the time. It is an account of the history of the people. We are not a racist people. Everyone likes to bring up the fact that there was a formal proclamation in ’78 that allowed black males to receive the priesthood, but no one mentions the blacks that were part of the church almost from the beginning, and received the priesthood, at a time when the rest of the country was still segregated. And that was one of the reasons that Mormons were disliked at the time. Yes, at a time in history, they were not able to get it, but they were always allowed membership, and today, most of our membership is outside of the country, and is widely spread throughout Africa. So I don’t believe it’s accurate to call us racist. We do not practice polygamy. That was a part of our early history, but hasn’t been practiced for over 100 years.
We are not homophobic. There’s a difference between being homophobic and not agreeing with the practice. I don’t agree with it, but I have friends who are gay. It’s no different than friends that do other things that I don’t agree with. I don’t dislike my friends for making those choices; it’s their right. People seem to think that if you don’t agree with something or someone, that you can’t still love that person. I believe that’s wrong, and it’s definitely not what we’re taught.
As far as sexism, that’s just bunk. Women in Utah were granted the right to vote in 1870, almost fifty years before the amendment to the Constitution. Their right was revoked by congress in 1887. It was later restored, along with the right to hold office, in 1895 when the state constitution was written. That’s way earlier than most, if not all (I don’t know the time line of every state), states. Now, you may be referring to the fact that women don’t hold the priesthood, and that is accurate. We don’t. But we don’t see that as not being equal; we see that as different roles. Women hold plenty of leadership roles in the church, and have had roles since the founding of the church. Our women’s organization is the largest women’s organization in the world and was started back in 1842. And anyone that comes to a meeting will quickly see how valued women are in our church.
As far as ‘becoming Gods,’ we believe that we are children of our Heavenly Father. We believe that he has a plan for us to return to live with him. Through the sacrifice and atonement of Jesus Christ, he has prepared a way for us to do this. We do not, however, believe that we will go to heaven and sit around playing harps all day. What else does God want for us? The goal is to become more like him. When people say that we think we can become Gods, it’s again said in a way to shock people. What do others think will happen when we reach heaven? Are we to stay like we are? Or are we to progress to something better? Because I for one am not perfect and I hope that I will someday be closer to being like God.
Do we do things that are ‘politically or otherwise convenient?’ Well, if that was the case, we wouldn’t have allowed women the right to vote; we wouldn’t have allowed blacks into our church in a time when they were kept separated. When things change in our church, like the proclamation to stop polygamy or allow blacks the priesthood, it is done by a council. We believe the leader of our church to be a prophet, seer and revelator. We also have a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. They gather, pray and receive guidance. And while that may sound weird to some, it is no different than the apostles and prophets of the Bible. We believe that God still talks to his people today, and not just in the time of the Bible, and that there is continuing revelation.
Being a member, and presumably having more experience with members of my church, I can tell you that we are not dictated to by our leaders. Harry Reid is the senate majority leader, and has been since ’87. He’s a Mormon, but no one questions whether the church will dictate to him what he should do in his position. That is not the way of our church. There are plenty of democrats and independents in our church. People also tend to believe that we’ll vote for someone just because they’re a Mormon. Well, that’s dumb. If Obama was a Mormon, I still wouldn’t vote for him because I don’t like his policies. Same goes for Harry Reid. They may both be great guys, but I’m conservative, so they would not be my choice.
So, as far as Romney is concerned, his ‘stance on most of the issues’ can’t ‘reek of his religion,’ when other people of his religion have different stances and different views. His views are conservative, and that’s what his stance reeks of—conservatism. I do want to clarify that Romney doesn’t, nor does any Mormon, believe that he can become a God by ‘collecting enough money and funneling it to his church.’ Again, that’s a statement meant to excite. We believe in the law of tithing. We pay 10% of our increase to the church. That doesn’t go to pay the leaders of the church. Our leaders are all volunteers. They have regular jobs and have to find time to help and serve others. Tithing goes to build churches, temples, and help lower tuition at Brigham Young Universities. (Not only for members.) Our church provides lots of humanitarian aid, and most of the aid is to members not of our church. When natural disasters hit, we are some of the first on the scene to help out with food and clean up, and not just in this country; all over the world. Tithing is a part of many religions, and is not our way of buying our way into heaven. If there is a poor person who has never made a dollar in their life, and thus had nothing to pay tithing on, they could still make it to heaven. Romney pays more in tithing because he earns more. How many people do you know that give up 10% of their income to charity? I’m not saying that that makes him/us better than anyone, because it doesn’t. I’d just like for you to keep it in context. This is something we are willing to do because we’ve been given so much in our lives. In fact, everything we have we believe we’ve been blessed with from the Lord; so giving back just 10% is not much to ask. It’s a faith thing and not a greed thing, so please don’t make light of it.
There’s more that I could say, but this is already incredibly long, and has moved away from Peter’s original post, and for that I apologize. I’ll just say that, if your views don’t line up with Romney’s policies, that’s fine; don’t vote for him. But keep it about his policies; he does."
One of our articles of faith says, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” We believe that, like the Bible, the Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets. That does not mean that when they talk about war, for example, that we believe we should be fighting wars all the time. It is an account of the history of the people. We are not a racist people. Everyone likes to bring up the fact that there was a formal proclamation in ’78 that allowed black males to receive the priesthood, but no one mentions the blacks that were part of the church almost from the beginning, and received the priesthood, at a time when the rest of the country was still segregated. And that was one of the reasons that Mormons were disliked at the time. Yes, at a time in history, they were not able to get it, but they were always allowed membership, and today, most of our membership is outside of the country, and is widely spread throughout Africa. So I don’t believe it’s accurate to call us racist. We do not practice polygamy. That was a part of our early history, but hasn’t been practiced for over 100 years.
We are not homophobic. There’s a difference between being homophobic and not agreeing with the practice. I don’t agree with it, but I have friends who are gay. It’s no different than friends that do other things that I don’t agree with. I don’t dislike my friends for making those choices; it’s their right. People seem to think that if you don’t agree with something or someone, that you can’t still love that person. I believe that’s wrong, and it’s definitely not what we’re taught.
As far as sexism, that’s just bunk. Women in Utah were granted the right to vote in 1870, almost fifty years before the amendment to the Constitution. Their right was revoked by congress in 1887. It was later restored, along with the right to hold office, in 1895 when the state constitution was written. That’s way earlier than most, if not all (I don’t know the time line of every state), states. Now, you may be referring to the fact that women don’t hold the priesthood, and that is accurate. We don’t. But we don’t see that as not being equal; we see that as different roles. Women hold plenty of leadership roles in the church, and have had roles since the founding of the church. Our women’s organization is the largest women’s organization in the world and was started back in 1842. And anyone that comes to a meeting will quickly see how valued women are in our church.
As far as ‘becoming Gods,’ we believe that we are children of our Heavenly Father. We believe that he has a plan for us to return to live with him. Through the sacrifice and atonement of Jesus Christ, he has prepared a way for us to do this. We do not, however, believe that we will go to heaven and sit around playing harps all day. What else does God want for us? The goal is to become more like him. When people say that we think we can become Gods, it’s again said in a way to shock people. What do others think will happen when we reach heaven? Are we to stay like we are? Or are we to progress to something better? Because I for one am not perfect and I hope that I will someday be closer to being like God.
Do we do things that are ‘politically or otherwise convenient?’ Well, if that was the case, we wouldn’t have allowed women the right to vote; we wouldn’t have allowed blacks into our church in a time when they were kept separated. When things change in our church, like the proclamation to stop polygamy or allow blacks the priesthood, it is done by a council. We believe the leader of our church to be a prophet, seer and revelator. We also have a Quorum of Twelve Apostles. They gather, pray and receive guidance. And while that may sound weird to some, it is no different than the apostles and prophets of the Bible. We believe that God still talks to his people today, and not just in the time of the Bible, and that there is continuing revelation.
Being a member, and presumably having more experience with members of my church, I can tell you that we are not dictated to by our leaders. Harry Reid is the senate majority leader, and has been since ’87. He’s a Mormon, but no one questions whether the church will dictate to him what he should do in his position. That is not the way of our church. There are plenty of democrats and independents in our church. People also tend to believe that we’ll vote for someone just because they’re a Mormon. Well, that’s dumb. If Obama was a Mormon, I still wouldn’t vote for him because I don’t like his policies. Same goes for Harry Reid. They may both be great guys, but I’m conservative, so they would not be my choice.
So, as far as Romney is concerned, his ‘stance on most of the issues’ can’t ‘reek of his religion,’ when other people of his religion have different stances and different views. His views are conservative, and that’s what his stance reeks of—conservatism. I do want to clarify that Romney doesn’t, nor does any Mormon, believe that he can become a God by ‘collecting enough money and funneling it to his church.’ Again, that’s a statement meant to excite. We believe in the law of tithing. We pay 10% of our increase to the church. That doesn’t go to pay the leaders of the church. Our leaders are all volunteers. They have regular jobs and have to find time to help and serve others. Tithing goes to build churches, temples, and help lower tuition at Brigham Young Universities. (Not only for members.) Our church provides lots of humanitarian aid, and most of the aid is to members not of our church. When natural disasters hit, we are some of the first on the scene to help out with food and clean up, and not just in this country; all over the world. Tithing is a part of many religions, and is not our way of buying our way into heaven. If there is a poor person who has never made a dollar in their life, and thus had nothing to pay tithing on, they could still make it to heaven. Romney pays more in tithing because he earns more. How many people do you know that give up 10% of their income to charity? I’m not saying that that makes him/us better than anyone, because it doesn’t. I’d just like for you to keep it in context. This is something we are willing to do because we’ve been given so much in our lives. In fact, everything we have we believe we’ve been blessed with from the Lord; so giving back just 10% is not much to ask. It’s a faith thing and not a greed thing, so please don’t make light of it.
There’s more that I could say, but this is already incredibly long, and has moved away from Peter’s original post, and for that I apologize. I’ll just say that, if your views don’t line up with Romney’s policies, that’s fine; don’t vote for him. But keep it about his policies; he does."
Ross- "Thanks a lot for your insight. I always find it great to get information "from the source" vs all of the misinformation you can find on the internet or even via traditional research. It's good to get information from someone who appears to fully understand their church.
While I don't quite get it, I respect your convictions... pretty amazing how we are in a place and time where people with such different views can hold a civil conversation, no? If only all Christians were like you and atheists like me, we might actually get some some things accomplished together."
While I don't quite get it, I respect your convictions... pretty amazing how we are in a place and time where people with such different views can hold a civil conversation, no? If only all Christians were like you and atheists like me, we might actually get some some things accomplished together."
Doing this was WAY outside my comfort zone, but I'm glad it worked out okay. I don't know why I chose to look at that post, but I'm glad I did. I don't know that I was super eloquent in my response, and probably didn't do as well as someone else might have, but it felt good to know that I had a chance to try to explain my church better to someone, and that I took the opportunity. As a stay-at-home mom, I don't always have the chance to do that. Even with being in school, I don't get many opportunities.
I hope that I can have more opportunities to share what I believe and help correct false beliefs about the church.
